Talk:Palestine (region)

Help needed adding Map that better illuminates terminology of regions under discussion

Map showing Israel and the Palestinian Territories as outlined by the Oslo Accords. The Jordan River is on the right, and the Mediterranean Sea is on the left.

This map should replace the satellite image in the modern boundaries section. It is taken from a different page and has explanatory information not in the other maps: it shows the names used elsewhere in context along with the terrain and political regions.

The ones showing the evolutions of the border lack labels, and would be worse for them as they show the change over time. The one showing the population as a dot map is great but needs this map to show how the reality of where people live corresponds to the political debate.

I tried to replace the satellite image from the modern boundaries section but could not get the formatting to work. I would appreciate someone finding a good spot on the page or advising how to get the text flow to work. Mrflip (talk) 14:55, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

"Greater Palestine" redirect

Greater Palestine redirects here, but where is the merged content? It's not at Jordan–Palestine relations, either, where the AfD decision originally said to merge the content to.

Mergers that factually end up being deletions, against the explicit decision at AfD, because nothing ever ends up being merged at all (the merge target is never even changed in response to the decision), are a loathsome pattern in Wikipedia. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 11:22, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Map

The 1750 map did not gain consensus per the various comments above, so I have added back the original svg map.

I understand that the svg map is preferred as it illustrates various periods, but could be simplified in certain areas and the color differential made clearer. Perhaps others could comment here, and once we have a clear set of changes agreed, we can improve the map further. Onceinawhile (talk) 09:38, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I will repeat my proposal here then to remove the dashed green lines and keep everything else as is. This way we will have three definitions:

1- ancient Palestine (Palestina I + II in green)

2- modern Palestine (Mandatory Palestine in red)

3- official Palestine (1967 borders in blue). Makeandtoss (talk) 11:05, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Agree with Make&toss. Zero^talk 14:43, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Historical boundaries of Palestine

@Makeandtoss and Zero0000: How about this? Onceinawhile (talk) 15:55, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Perfect, an improvement despite the small risk of OR for the green line. Makeandtoss (talk) 16:12, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

It's good. The fine blue line could be made more prominent but it isn't necessary. Zero^talk 01:19, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I just realized I have been confusing two things together; the Roman province of Syria Palestina and the Byzantine provinces of Palestina I and II. I thought they were the same thing. Since they are different, wouldn't it make sense just to have Roman province of Syria Palestina, as this would eliminate the OR risk when combing the Byzantine provinces I and II? Also how sure are we of the eastern borders of Syria Palestina, was it really the Jordan River? Makeandtoss (talk) 08:10, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

This is a good question and the heart of the challenge. Looking at the detail within Timeline of the name Palestine, you can see that Wikipedia's suggestion that the Roman province was formally called "Syria Palestina" - as opposed to just "Palestina" - has no primary evidence, as both names were in use at the time. I suspect the SP name in scholarly works came originally from the existence of the name on this Louvre diploma (published at the end of the 19th century).

Equally, the borders moved around over time, and there are no fixed lines. The best we can do is identify the best scholarly sources with these borders in them across all the available periods. Onceinawhile (talk) 14:10, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

We can go with the borders used at the Syria Palaestina's article, i.e. the Jordan River. Updating the green borders to these ones should be the last improvement possible and the best outcome of this lengthy discussion. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:39, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 October 2024

Could you please just modify “The holy land of israel” and you make it seem like israel is a country but not Palestine.🇵🇸 Sam9472 (talk) 01:59, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Kline • talk • contribs 03:22, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Hebrew

Is "אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל" = Palestine? We should probably use "פָּלֶשְׂתִּינָה‎" or "פָלַסְטִין‎", no? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 18:44, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Palestine first called this in 5bc

So what was it called before hand? This whole article is missing information let me help you with that it is the greek word for Israel why are we not mentioning the original name? 108.27.235.48 (talk) 21:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Bring a reliable source that states the region was called "Israel" in Greek prior to the 5th century BCE (NB: very different from 5 BC), and this information can be added. In the meantime, you might benefit from reading WP:NOTAFORUM. Evan ^{(talk|contribs)} 21:04, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

here you go on the kids national geographic site(https://kids.nationalgeographic.com/geography/countries/article/israel#:~:text=The%20Israelites%20fought%20for%20200,MODERN%20HISTORY) also what was it called in the bible? ever heard of it never mentions palestine but it mentions Israel and Canaan again this should be in this article 108.27.235.48 (talk) 21:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

From that source (which is neither academic nor appropriate to cite in an encyclopedia):

Abraham fled from Mesopotamia (now the country of Iraq) to Canaan

The Israelites fought for 200 years for control of Canaan

Around 5 B.C., this land became known as Palestine; the people who called it home were known as Palestinians.

Between 1920 and 1948, the United Kingdom controlled Palestine

We have two entire articles Kingdom of Israel for the period of time during which a northern segment of Palestine (never the entirety of the region) was referred to as "Israel." This article is not about that, as you may or (probably) may not have been able to tell from the title. Please take your nationalist race-baiting elsewhere. Evan ^{(talk|contribs)} 21:16, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I took a whole 5 minutes to find you this source we can get you more academic sources but again not listing the other names seems to misleading and where is the link to the kingdom of israel? this arctile is ignoring the real history of the land how can you have an article on "Palestine" without mentioning the other names and the whole history of the name Palestine and the origin of the word palestine why was the region ever called palestine? who named it this what was it called by the people at the time it was called that who lived there at the time? etc etc this article is full of wholes 108.27.235.48 (talk) 21:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

The word "Israel" appears five times in the lede alone. If you're requesting a change to the article, it's incumbent on you to answer questions (with reliable sources and with punctuation, if possible) rather than asking them. In addition, the children's source you provided says nothing like what you claimed—that Palestine was referred to as "Israel" in Greek prior to the 5th century BCE. You seem to be angry that there is an article about the historical region of Palestine that does not place one of its many ethnic groups as the privileged determiner of what the region is called. That is not my or anyone else's problem but yours. Evan ^{(talk|contribs)} 21:46, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Evan you seem to be angry I am just mentioning this is missing historical context. there is a long history before it was ever had a name called Palestine. It was called this by a foreign power not the people that actually lived in the region and the people that called themselves Palestinian is a very recent as in this article on wikipedia mentions "In modern times, the first person to self-describe Palestine's Arabs as "Palestinians" was Khalil Beidas in 1898, followed by Salim Quba'in and Najib Nassar in 1902." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians#:~:text=For%20some%2C%20the%20term%20%22Palestinian,up%20to%20the%20Ottoman%20period.) 108.27.235.48 (talk) 22:03, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

What change to the article are you proposing, and what reliable sources are you citing to support it? Evan ^{(talk|contribs)} 22:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I propose changing it actually include all the information about the land if i get time i can try to propose a more full idea but the article in its current state is not mentioning the full history and why it was even called Palestine in the first place.

using that same article i mentioned before Palestianians it offers a better history also not complete but "When the Romans conquered the region in the first century BCE, they used the name Judaea for the province that covered most of the region. At the same time, the name Syria Palestina continued to be used by historians and geographers to refer to the area between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, as in the writings of Philo, Josephus and Pliny the Elder. During the early 2nd century CE, Syria Palaestina became the official administrative name in a move viewed by scholars as an attempt by emperor Hadrian to disassociate Jews from the land as punishment for the Bar Kokhba revolt. Jacobson suggested the change to be rationalized by the fact that the new province was far larger. The name was thenceforth inscribed on coins, and beginning in the fifth century, mentioned in rabbinic texts. The Arabic word Filastin has been used to refer to the region since the time of the earliest medieval Arab geographers. It appears to have been used as an Arabic adjectival noun in the region since as early as the 7th century." Actually this whole article on the Palestinians is better all around (Even though personally I think it would be better if they focused a little more on that it wasnt till recently that a Palestinian is referred to an Arab living in that region where it was for a long time a person living in that region 108.27.235.48 (talk) 00:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC)